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the_khan
December 9th 2008, 11:22 PM
Hi Guys
My kitten is 4 months old now and hes on his second day of using the amber stage. On the first day, he was a bit cautious about it, and prefered to do his bussiness on the floor next to the toilet, but I think I crushed his little rebellion by lifting him up onto the LK (whilst he was doing his bussiness) and then rewarding him.
Anyway, now hes hopping onto the LK but whilst he was on the red stage he learnt to go in the very centre ring, obviously now that hes on the amber stage his precious centre is missing, and I think hes having trouble finding a comfortable position to do his thing.
So far he's made deposits on the seat of the LK or in the litter no-where near the hole. Im a bit exasperated about this because he hasnt adopted the correct position shown on the DVD, and I would like to put him in the correct position whilst he's doing the deed, but Im a bit worried that I might traumatise him and have a situation where it puts him off the LK. So can anyone give me any hints in regard to repositioning (Do's/Dont's) or any sort of feedback?
thanks

pixies
December 10th 2008, 04:11 PM
Don't worry about it. It will be better with the time, and it's quite normal that in Amber stage the positioning is wrong.
While he is peeing, you can move him gently towards the center, but only slightly after he actually start peeing. This is a point when the cat a little "paralyzed" doing the business. You can gently hold his 2 round thighs with your 2 hands and position him quickly (but gently) over the hole.

jwkuan
December 11th 2008, 11:32 AM
Pixies is right. If you push your cat's butt forward whiling he is peeing, he probably would keep on doing his business. I do that with my cat, Coco, all the time when I see her being too much towards the back. At first, she is a little uncomfortable. Now she does not mind it that much. Actually, she can poop into the hole 100%, but she still pees toward the back.

the_khan
December 11th 2008, 04:47 PM
OK thanks, At the moment he aims to get it in the litter, and keeps his paws in the litter too, but Ive been catching him in the act and moving him, and its great not having to clean up the mess afterwards.
I was wondering though, how long do I have to keep correcting his position before he learns to put his paws up on the LK seat?

Also Ive found that before my kitten goes to our toilet to do his thing, he checks my brothers room and if the door is open he'll do his thing in there. Is there any way of deterring him from going in there? I was thinking maybe mopping the floor (its not carpeted) in lemon juice or something?

jwkuan
December 12th 2008, 02:28 AM
If your cat left a scent on the floor, then you have to clean it quickly. This site recommends urine off or there is a homemade remedy you can try. First neutralize the area with 1/2 water and 1/2 white vinegar and rinse well. Then clean the area with a mixture of hydrogen peroxide, baking soda and a little dish detergent. I couldn't find Urine off, so I tried the home remedy and I think it works better than the other commercial cleansing agents. You can try the lemon juice thing too--my cats hate the lemon juice but don't buy the formula they sell in the store. Those I bought and they don't work for my cats.
As far as how long it takes for you cats to correct his position--it depends on whether your cat is stubborn like mine!!

the_khan
December 12th 2008, 09:08 AM
Im not so much trying to get him to stop urinating in there, as I am trying to get him to avoid the room all together... like filling the room with garlic if he were a vampire?

And thankfully my kitten isnt stubborn, this morning I woke up and found he'd urinated in the litter of the amber stage overnight, and after I cleaned that out he hopped right up there to defecate.

Ive also found that when I correct his position when I catch him in the act, he makes a sort of indignant meow/groan. Is that normal, or a bad sign?

jwkuan
December 12th 2008, 10:10 AM
Khan, I hate to tell you that it is hard to keep a cat out of a particular room. Maybe try citrus air freshener or something?? My cats always like to get in my master bathroom just to lay there. So I just keep my bathroom closed and they lose interest. When I keep my bedroom closed, they love to rush in there when I open the door!!
As to your cat making a groan, that's just normal. That means he thinks he is in trouble or something. Just praise him and ensure everything is okay. Tell him he is going a good job. Give him treats will help, too.

the_khan
December 12th 2008, 10:54 AM
OK, so do you guys actually praise them whilst they're doing the deed? Ive avoided doing that sort of thing, so it doesnt distract them.
I usually just wait till he finishes, and once he jumps off the toilet he'll quickly streak off to the laundry room because he knows thats where I keep his snacks.
Also how do you guys praise your cats? I just stroke my cats back until he purrs and give him a couple of dry cat biscuits.

Smokeypb
December 12th 2008, 11:35 AM
I have found that on lino floors a solution of surgical spirit and water seems to get rid of the cat pee smell. I have bought some Urine-off for my leather sofa and that also seems to have killed the smell on that within 2hrs.

Once i have mopped the floor with the surgical spirit and water solution i then rinse it using a different mop and then dry it so that the solution doesn't get on their paws (normally i shut them out of the room i am cleaning so that there is no chance of it getting on their paws). It may seem like a lot of hassle for cleaning up cat pee but it gets rid of the smell instantly and is cheaper than using the urine-off on the floors as that seems to be a bit pricey.

jwkuan
December 12th 2008, 12:34 PM
Khan, you can use verbal encouragements once your cat starts doing his business. He will feel more secure and comfortable if you are there to ensure his right behavior. Both of my cats are calmer if I am there just to tell them it's okay when they're hesitating, especially when Tux has constipation (too much dry food and not enough water!)

What is surgical spirit? Is it rubbing alcohol?? I need to clean off the bathroom floor which Coco constantly uses for her business! I can tell there is still scent because she sniffs over there all the time!

alikat
December 13th 2008, 12:42 AM
Khan, I definitely encourage my girls (and even pet them) while they are using the toilet. I think that praising them WHILE they do the deed helps them to associate using the toilet as being a good thing. When we first started, I'd actually start praising them as soon as they'd peek over the edge of the toilet seat and hop up. =)

I tend to speak to them in soothing, happy voices, give them treats, and pet them for as long as they want to be petted. (When they were holding it in all the time, they got hyper after toileting and never wanted to get pet for very long!!)

It's been a long road (Just under a year to get to the white stage), but it's so worth it!! I cannot emphasize how important it is to find the *right* treats with which to bribe your kitties, too. My problem cat likes Pounce treats, but when we started training, it was not enough to encourage her to conquer her fears of using the toilet. However, things started to change when I started using dried tuna flakes...interestingly enough, now that she's using the toilet consistently, she's more than happy to take a Pounce treat as a reward!!

Smokey, just realize that while the surgical spirit seems to remove the scent to your nose, your cats may still be smelling something. (I can't say that I know the ingredient list of surgical spirit, so for all I know it works perfectly well!) I don't know where you are, but I have found a great enzymatic cleaner that doesn't cost much called Petzyme. When I leave the house for a long period of time, I tend to pour a splash into the toilet so that my cats don't think it is too dirty to use. Also, once I started using it to clean up all accidents on the bathroom floor when we were having accidents, my Paqi seemed to think twice about defecating on my tile.

the_khan
December 20th 2008, 01:16 PM
Hey guys
I havent had any more accidents or anything with my kitten
and 9 times out of 10 he'll put his front paws up on the LK seat
but now how do I go about encouraging him to get his back paws up there?
would I need to lift him into position (as opposed to gently pushing him) whilst hes squatting there?

alikat
December 20th 2008, 07:20 PM
My best-performing cat (Dijkstra) allllllways wanted at least one or two hind legs down in the disc. When I took away the green disc, she still liked to drop one of her hind legs onto the teeny-tiny ledge of the white seat!! In order to teach her proper foot position (because I eventually plan on attempting the human seat) I would wait until she'd started going, then *carefully* reach one finger under one foot and lift it slowly up to the rest of the white rim. Recently, the last few times I've caught her using the toilet, I have happily seen all 4 paws on white. =)

Watch out, though - if you're not careful you may either startle the cat, get peed on, or both!! :p

the_khan
December 26th 2008, 05:06 PM
Hey guys, quick update, Im on my second day of the green stage now.

On the first day he was a bit unsure about defecating up on the LK and jumped down and started scratching on the floor but I kept putting him back up on the seat and he finally after 10 mins he went in there. I did notice however that he had all 4 paws on the LK seat and I also noticed that he was rocking back and forth unstably whilst doing the deed.

Today when he went though (no floor scratching :) ) it was with 3 paws on the seat, and 1 on the green disk, but his stance was a lot more sturdy. Just wanted to know if this 3 paws thing is going to sort itself out, and if anyones got any tips for me on the green stage?

jwkuan
December 27th 2008, 04:09 AM
I think the more important thing is that your cat needs to be comfortable with his position. He will probably correct himself. The first time he was rocking probably because he was nervous. I switched my Tux from intermediate green to green this morning and I saw him adjusting his position a few times before he went ( he didn't seem to have any problem though.) It seemed that he can always adjust himself to the tray that's on the LK but he prefers not touching the litter if there is any in the tray. So I think you should just let your cat get familiar with the new tray for a few days and there should be no need to correct him if he is doing okay!
A little tip for you is that even if your cat is doing okay with the Lk. Always pay attention to his #2 habit. For example, if you cat used to do #2 every day and you noticed he has not gone for more than his usual time. Then he might have a constipation problem. When Tux first had that problem he was scratching on other places thinking about doing his #2 somewhere else. Luckily, I noticed that and I guarded him to use the LK and he used the Lk with some groaning. As good as my Tux is--he never had any accidents since 2 months ago with no monitoring--he was having second thought about using the floor when he had his first constipation!! So pay attention to your cat if he has not defecate beyond his usual time!

the_khan
December 27th 2008, 08:57 AM
Well my kittens routine has changed a bit :???:, he used to go #2 a couple of hours after each feeding (twice a day), but now he seems to only go once in the day. I just attributed this to him getting older though, hes now 4 months old.

pixies
December 29th 2008, 03:59 PM
Don't worry about it. Our cat is doing #2 once in 24-48 hours. It's normal for a toilet-trained cat.

the_khan
January 5th 2009, 12:16 PM
Hey guys, quick update, things are going well and my kittens position has worked itself out and he can now be trusted to go to the toilet unsupervised.

Im now at the stage where im reducing the amount of litter in the green disk. Im just curious though, right now theres about 3-4 tea spoons worth of litter in there but he still paws away at the litter (and even the surface of the green disk) before using the toilet. My kitten actually spends more time scratching and walking around the green disk then the time it takes to do the deed. Im just wondering if this behaviour ultimately stops, or if its normal for him to dig even when theres no litter left?

Also, im having my kitten castrated today, so has anyone had any negative litter kwitting experiences after they got their cats fixed?

jwkuan
January 5th 2009, 11:12 PM
Hi, Khan
It is normal and natural for cats to paw even if there is no litter. You would sometimes find them paw at the food dish after eating. My tux still paws in air or on the toilet seat after he goes. He prefers no litter. Since you don't have much litter any way, you can gradually put one less teaspoon at a time until there's none. I just stopped putting litter in once tux got to green, he didn't seemed to mind.
After your cat is fix, he should not be jumping. So I thing you should put a step or something in front of the toilet to help him get on. He should not have problem doing his business. It takes a lot less time for a boy to recover than a girl. My cats were fixed at 4 months old and Tux was active after a day or 2. Coco took almost 3 to 4 days before she acts normal again! Total recovery takes sometime from 7 to 14 days.

the_khan
January 9th 2009, 03:31 PM
Hey guys, we had our first green stage incident this morning. Im not too sure why it happened (as ide started to trust him using the toilet unsupervised), but for some reason my kitten went to our toilet this morning, scratched around, but left and decided to urinate on some old newspapers in the lowest rung of a bookshelf.

After cleaning it up, I placed him in the scene of the crime and made a whole bunch of thumping noises (against the wood of the bookshelf) and sprayed him with a plant mister, then I spent the next few hours giving him the 'death stare' whenever I saw him and displaying very threatening body langauge towards him.

Anyway, I stopped being mean to him around lunch time, and for a couple of times I lead him to our toilet (with bribes) and I got him to urinate there again. I just dont understand why he decided to not use the toilet this morning. Hes definately not afraid of it or anything. Does anyone have any idea why he decided to rebel this morning? Should I even trust him now?

jwkuan
January 11th 2009, 12:43 AM
Khan, how is you kitten doing?? When did you have him fixed? I suspect the peeing incident has something to do with that. Maybe he feels uncomfortable using the LK. Normally, cats don't break their toileting habits unless something happened or health related issue. Even My problem cat Coco, she has only used the bathroom floor besides the LK for her peeing and pooping. So if I locked her out of the bathroom, she would hold until her favorite spots are available!

the_khan
January 11th 2009, 01:10 AM
Well I got him sterilized on monday, and for that afternoon I switched back to the amber stage as the drugs hadnt worn off and I didnt want him falling into the toilet. Next day I switched back to the green stage (but added more litter) and he was fine until thursday when his rebellion started.

I did read your bit about the no jumping thing, but by monday night he was jumping on our couches on his own accord trying to catch flys, so I didnt really think it was an issue.
Over here in Australia the castration is done under a general anesthetic and the scrotum is cauterized shut. The vet said he should be all good and normal in 3 days.

Unfortunately his rebellion wasnt a one off thing. He doesnt refuse to use the LK, I can trust him to defecate there, and with some coaxing he'll urinate there aswell. By coaxing I mean, a couple of times a day (around the times he usually goes) I lead him into our toilet with treats and just tempt him up there until he goes.

Anyway, its almost like he prefers to urinate in other places, like yesterday the lowest rung of our book shelf and my brothers room, and tonight I caught him digging at the floor next to the toilet. :???:

So, got any suggestions for me? Is it better to just reward good behaviour in hopes that itll set in, or to punish bad behaviour to put the fear into him?

jwkuan
January 11th 2009, 08:52 AM
If your cat used the Lk after the procedure and felt uncomfortable, he would relate that to the use of the LK and then try to avoid it ( even if he was okay to jump on the couch.) My cat Coco was mad at her brother for a few days after her neutering procedure for no specify reason!
In my opinion, any punishment does not work for long term. And it depends a lot on your cat's personalities! My cat Coco is very determined; I can't bribe her with treats or praises. Yelling does not work on her even when she knew what I was mad about. On Coco, I use the time out as punishment. Every time she had an accident, I put her in her carrier for a time out. Now she does not pee on the floor but she still can't help pooping on the bathroom floor ( that is if I don't take her when she "wants" to go!) For my other cat Tux, things are a lot easier. I would simply use the cold shoulder. The last time he had an accident I yelled at him and he did not have any accident since. There was a time that I've seen him sniffing and scratching at other places (when he had constipation) and I simply told him "no" in a firm voice and that was enough to put him off.
So you need to decide what works best for your cat because you know him the best! Since urinating is the 1st issue, I think he just need to realize that using Lk does not cause pain. Give him some coaching and encouragement (warm comforting tone when he pees in he Lk and lots of paises.)

the_khan
January 16th 2009, 09:19 AM
Hey guys, my kitten seems to be doing well and we've had no more acts of rebellion... but this morning WHILST he was defecating he fell off the toilet! :???:
Im not sure if this is going to put him off using the LK, as he certainly didnt enjoy me washing the feces from his nether regions afterwards. Anyway after I finished the clean up efforts of him, the LK and the bathroom floor, I treated him, was able to bribe him to jump up to the LK and we had our usual 10min after toileting play session. I guess Im going to have to watch him closely tonight and tomorrow to see if he doesnt find any alternative spots to do his thing. Anyway, has anything like this happened for you guys? Any advise would be appreciated :)

alikat
January 16th 2009, 10:38 AM
My problem pooper fell off the toilet mid-poop once (that I saw - maybe more?). I had to teach her to not raise her butt so high in the air while pooping. For some reason on the toilet she used to raise her butt as hiiiiigh as possible, leaning forward as a result. Gentle pressure on her chest and back + good treats + "stool softener" in her dinner helped us get over her awkward positioning. (By "stool softener" I mean canned pumpkin or olive oil.)

Definitely keep an eye on your guy - he might be somewhat traumatized by the situation, even if it wasn't immediately apparent. One of my cats ended up in the toilet once, seemed unphased - got back out and actually peed through the hole, but then started having accidents all over the house. Had to go back to the red stage at that point. :-|

Good luck!

the_khan
January 16th 2009, 11:24 AM
I was in the next room when it happened, so Im not sure how... but I have noticed he raises pretty high when he defecates... also he's been doing this sort of tripod thing by raising his front paw whilst doing the deed...

the_khan
March 6th 2009, 09:49 AM
Hey guys, Im assuming there are some pretty knowledgable cat ppl on here so i was just wondering... you know with dogs, if you feed them before you eat your self, the dog will consider itself to be of a higher social ranking then you and treat you like garbage... is this the same for cats?

KatnGiz
March 6th 2009, 11:30 AM
Lol, I think cats will think they are of a higher social ranking regardless of when you feed them :-) However, I do believe that cats can be trained. My mum had a cat that was given to her because the owner was moving overseas. Initially the cat would winge until he got fed, so we ignored him until he stopped winging and then we fed him. Eventually he learned and he stopped the winging. So it is all about training, if you disipline your pets then they know who is in charge, if you let them run free... they'll do what they like.

the_khan
March 7th 2009, 05:08 PM
Update:
We were stuck on the green stage for several weeks but we got over that hurdle by making up an intermediary disk out of ply wood.
Its really easy to do, what I did was trace out the green disk onto paper to make a template, and then traced that up to some ply wood and cut it out using a power saw. Its about half the surface area of the green stage, you can see a pic of it below.
Anyway, right now we're on our first day of the white stage, with a confirmed urination! :D

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e319/apophis777/IMG_7031s.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e319/apophis777/IMG_7074.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e319/apophis777/IMG_2508.jpg

alikat
March 8th 2009, 04:06 AM
Congrats on the progress!! (And your cat is adorable!!!)

Crazy Cat Lady
March 8th 2009, 09:05 PM
Hi everyone

I bought my LK a few days ago after having a home made version since 1st Jan 2009. They were using the home made version fine for #1s and #2s (just a plastic bowl filled with litter inside the toilet bowl). Since I've introduced the LK, neither cat will have anything to do with it, and I've been having to clean mess up to 4 times a day.

has any one got any suggestions? I really don't want to have to give up on this. Please help.

the_khan
April 3rd 2009, 01:46 AM
Hey guys
I need some help... yesterday whilst on the toilet my kitten was startled by a noise from another room and after going to investigate decided to urinate into his food bowl.

Today he urinated in the toilet twice at his usual times but I just discovered he'd urinated once again into his food bowl...
Im really perplexed as to why he'd do this... Ive already given the area a clean to get rid of any latent odours and as usual I give him a food and play reward after he uses the toilet...

Anyway, can anyone give me some advice on how I should deal with this? Would it be a deterrent if I served up his next meal without cleaning the bowl?

alikat
April 3rd 2009, 01:52 AM
I definitely do not recommend not cleaning the bowl before feeding him. You certainly don't want him to make an association between where he eliminates and where he eats!!

Try getting some cat-calming spray if you can and spend some more happy familiarization time with him in the bathroom. After my scaredy-cat got frightened off the toilet by my other cat, these 2 things were very useful in getting her reacquainted with the toilet.

jwkuan
April 3rd 2009, 11:18 PM
The-khan,
What do you clean your cat's food bowl with? Maybe there is a smell that encourage your cat to pee there at his stressful time. There was once my cat, Tux pooped in the sink next to the toilet. I figured out that maybe it was because I cleaned his Lk tray in this sink and it left some smell in the sink pipe to confuse him. I then poured enzymatic cleaner down the sink and have the sink covered when it was not in use. Tux has resumed his normal pooping behavior since.
If after you clean the food bowl thoroughly and he is till peeing there, you should change his food bowl. It would be great if you catch him in the act and tell him no. Normally, I only need to "no" Tux once and he would listen to me!

the_khan
April 8th 2009, 09:15 PM
The-khan,
What do you clean your cat's food bowl with? Maybe there is a smell that encourage your cat to pee there at his stressful time. There was once my cat, Tux pooped in the sink next to the toilet. I figured out that maybe it was because I cleaned his Lk tray in this sink and it left some smell in the sink pipe to confuse him. I then poured enzymatic cleaner down the sink and have the sink covered when it was not in use. Tux has resumed his normal pooping behavior since.
If after you clean the food bowl thoroughly and he is till peeing there, you should change his food bowl. It would be great if you catch him in the act and tell him no. Normally, I only need to "no" Tux once and he would listen to me!

Well I only ever rinsed it in very hot water just before serving up a new meal, but his bowl is no where near the toilet so yeah...

what I ended up doing was taking the bowl away from him after he'd finished eating. Notice him 'tripod-ing' (boy i wish he'd stop doing that)

I caught him urinating in the bowl once more (before I took it away from him) and I also caught him pawing at the spot after that and I growled at him both times... I also did some psychological warfare by moving his great enemy (the vacuum cleaner) to that spot...

So now its been a couple of days and hes been going back to the toilet... Something new ive been trying is, whilst watching him using the litter kwitter (i dont really trust him to do it unsupervised) ive been squinting at him... apparently cats associate eye contact as threatening behavior... so yeah?

Also ive moved onto the seat stage (yay!). Heres a clip, but not of the seat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpzgClKueEw

jwkuan
April 11th 2009, 02:30 AM
The_khan,
I'm glad that your cat got over the accidents. He has probably targeted the spot rather than his food bowl. Cats release their scents through scratching and it's like a marking behavior. Since cats always scratch at their food bowls that make those spots a "safe" place when they are stressed. I watched your cat's video and he's so cute--just like my Tux (Tux is a tuxedo cat). The tripod-ing thing I think would eventually stop by itself. Tux did a "bi-poding" thing for a week before I could correct him. I held his front paws down and we made a mess while he was pooping. I cleaned him up afterward and he stopped doing that after the incident! He still sometimes does a tripoding thing before he goes #2. I think that makes his body straighter and easier to defecate!

the_khan
April 12th 2009, 10:26 AM
He has probably targeted the spot rather than his food bowl. Cats release their scents through scratching and it's like a marking behavior. Since cats always scratch at their food bowls that make those spots a "safe" place when they are stressed.

Thats good to know, I dont trust my cat at all with this sort of thing and I absolutely will not leave him alone in my room for fear he'll do something on my bed or my computer chair
Im curious though, ive been treating him whenever I catch him after using the toilet and this has been going on from the start... so I was wondering if it was a good idea to stop the treats... from reading older posts on this forum it doesnt seem like this training is 100% and even seasoned toilet-ers eventually find somewhere else to go

Anyway, heres a pic of my cat in a hat :p:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e319/apophis777/P090409_135101.jpg

jwkuan
April 12th 2009, 12:34 PM
I eventually stopped rewarding my cats for using the bathroom. I just give them treats whenever I feel like it and they don't particularly "ask" for it after using the bathroom. Comes to using the toilet, I can count on Tux 100%. I just know he won't pee or poop anywhere else and he hasn't from the beginning(except for the time that he fell in the toilet and when he was confused the toilet with the sink). Even Coco I can trust her to an extend, she will not go anywhere beyond the bathroom and she hasn't. At one point, I was watching Coco when I saw her sniffing at places. Then I just didn't have the time and gave up on watching her all the time. But Coco's accidents were just limited to her favorite spot next to the toilet. There were a couple of times that I accidentally closed the bathroom door and later found both cats waited outside the bathroom door to go in. I know that most cats don't change their toileting habits unless triggered by some kind of incident or health reason. If you've been strict with your cat from the beginning like I did, there should be no reason not to trust your cat!

the_khan
April 19th 2009, 10:17 PM
Hey guys
Im going on holidays in July and we're going to have to leave our cat (whos been using the toilet seat for a couple of weeks now) at a cat motel where he'll have to use a litter tray. My question is, will this undo all the training hes been through or will he remember to use our toilet when we get him back after about 3 weeks?
cheers